That’s kind of where I am as a consumer.

Where I am as a creator is, I think, where you are: How can I use these shiny bits in some wild new thing?
.-= Doyce´s last blog ..Updates for the week of 2010-03-28 =-.

In fact, I can think of a few games that have attracted such comments.
.-= Doyce´s last blog ..Updates for the week of 2010-03-28 =-.

– c.
.-= Chuck´s last blog ..Painting With Shotguns XXIX =-.

– c.
.-= Chuck´s last blog ..You Must Feed The Owlets Of Inspiration =-.

ANYWAY.

Here’s the thing: I don’t disagree with any individual part of what you’re saying. Not one. Objectively, clinically, I see the truth in every one of your statements.

(Which means, probably, that it’s not worth gnawing at for too much longer.)

The only real disconnect is that the bad parts affect the end product more for you than for me.

I don’t know why that is. Obviously, it’s as much how I’m wired as how you are.

For me, the plot in ME2 exists pretty much to get me to the next set piece battle, or the next bit of drama with one of the characters – for that purpose, it works admirably.

I suppose I immediately approach the thing in kind of a “Summer Movie” mindset, so my expectations of plot are low, and also makes me especially value those things happening in the game that go above and beyond a summer movie (the characterization, the backstory for the characters, the great story setting, the (seven) hundreds of little trivia bits that are scattered throughout the game to dig into.

So maybe it’s because I’m expecting a “4″, and I get a “7″, so I’m really impressed? I dunno. I think that’s probably it.

I mean: I’ll be honest – I’m not comparing it to The Road or The Book Thief. I’m comparing it to stuff like Avatar (against which, for me, it comes out well ahead), which… well, yeah, not an especially deep plot either. Popcorn movie. Really GOOD popcorn movie, but still.

Anyway: bottom line, I just don’t disagree with any point you make, which might be why the debate is frustrating for both of us.
.-= Doyce´s last blog ..Updates for the week of 2010-03-28 =-.

Lemme clarify a few things –

I don’t agree that what I was saying (re: ME2, “story”) is married to the plot. And I don’t agree that The Road (or presumably your novel) lacks in plot, either.

The Road has a plot. A plot is simply a sequence of events. Things happen in that novel, and so it has a plot. Presuming that your novel does not stay in a single room that fails to change, I suspect your novel has a plot, too. Maybe not a robust one or a complex one, but that doesn’t make it any less of a plot.

Now, with ME2, I believe that story isn’t just the presence of all those elements (plot, characters, setting, etc), but rather how it all comes together.

And, in ME2, those elements don’t hang together for me. I love them individually, and it makes me care, and the individual stories of the characters intrigue me, but as a story, those elements aren’t necessary. The story doesn’t require them.

So — for me — the game’s story is the aggregation of all these elements, and that aggregation is sort of dumb. It’s limp, it hobbles.

Now, to be clear, I don’t know that it matters. The game still worked for me. I still loved the hell out of it (as opposed to ME1, which made me want to throw things through my television screen).

But, I just wanted to clarify those points a wee smidge, see if I couldn’t shine a light on ‘em.

– c.
.-= Chuck´s last blog ..Karate Kicking Your Way Into The Game Industry =-.

This is definitely not a criticism of the game part of the games! I just personally don’t like it, so I don’t play. It’s not for me.

I’ve already noticed that Chuck and I have some different experiences with those games as games. Specifically, the game (and gameplay) seems to intrude more for him than it does for me.

Chuck’s experience, I should point out, is in the vast majority.

I mean, I’m aware that ME2 and ME1 (and Dragon Age) have dirt-simple plots. I just don’t… care? In Mass Effect 2, I blast through “the plot” to get back to the ship and talk to characters. Each of my full play-throughs take a fraction of the hours-of-play that I see most people mention.

I cheer at the end not because the crew is kicking ass, but because “Tali’s shields held” or “Jacob got his shit together well enough to lead the 2nd team.” I’m celebrating the characters, I guess.

Then there’s Dragon Age, where my first play through took three weeks clocked in at 81 hours. FULLY HALF of which I firmly believe was spent in camp. Not all in talking — I lost HOURS to tweaking equipment — but a lot of it was — that, and reading the Codex.

And I probably overstate the lack of plot in The Road or Hidden Things. (There’s the only time you will EVER see those two books mentioned in the same sentence.) It’s not that there’s no plot, but it’s largely incidental.